Dr. Sarah and Dr. Travis TIC Interview Done.
Dr Travis: [00:00:00] We had done really well that first year, so we were kind of on path. And then when it came down to contract negotiations, they walked and basically took almost half the practice with them. So we were like already mortgaged out heavily, like big, big loan payments for the purchase. Yeah. And so we started kind of like freaking out and we had to like amortize the loan a little longer and then we basically rebuilt up again, like we went up another, whatever, we got to like, we built the practice up another, I would say 25 percent after the year that they left and then COVID hit.
And it went back down again and I was like, we were like, Oh my God. And then we, we started coaching you guys a year after her for me. And that's when you guys kind of stepped into the vitality test for us. And that was like, it was like, it was like, now we have something that we can use. Yeah, just to measure progress objectively.
Dr Don Macdonald: Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Don McDonald, and it's my pleasure to bring you a podcast dedicated to the chiropractors who [00:01:00] are not just about treating pain, but about making a profound impact on the nervous systems of their practice members. Let's embark on this journey of enhancing our practices, our communities, and the lives of the people we touch one nervous system at a time.
Thank you for joining me on The Informed Chiropractor. Let's get started. Well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Informed Chiropractor. This is Dr. Don Macdonald your host. And today I think these guys might be the closest people I've interviewed if you were to drive. So I think we're probably about, uh, six or seven hour drives, but ish, six hour drive away.
So it's actually pretty close there in Northern British Columbia. Uh, Dr. Sarah Tremblay and Dr. Travis Pilpo are awesome chiropractors and they graduated from CMCC. They started practice in West Bank in Kelowna. They met, they were in the same class, I was asking this before and they waited to the end before they hooked up so that just in case you never, you never want to date [00:02:00] someone in your, in your own class right in the first semester and then all of a sudden break up and then it makes it kind of awkward in chiropractic school so, but you guys are, are like Chiropractic sweethearts that have married and have kids.
And, um, I really wanted to get them on here because is they, they got it, you know, got out, out of, uh, school, got into practice, got things rolling, but kind of got stuck at a plateau for a pretty long period of time. And they worked with us in the, in our 90 day mentoring program. And they've been in our informed chiropractor group.
They've been to a couple of seminars that we've done. And just in the last couple of years, they just really like cranked through the ceiling. And so I'm like. I always love to share inspiring stories like that because there's a lot of chiropractors out there that feel like they're kind of stagnant and stuck.
So, welcome to the podcast, guys.
Dr. Travis and Dr Sarah: Hey, thanks for having us, Don. Glad to be here.
Dr. Sarah: That's awesome. We're excited to get you in there. We're going to be seeing you here in Denver on, uh, on May 4th for that, uh, lower, uh, lower, lower spine and Macdonald safety corridor. So that'll be fun too. So, first of all, let's get into the, uh, your guys kind of origin stories.
Like, did you guys know each other [00:03:00] before chiropractic school?
Dr Sarah: No, no.
Dr Don Macdonald: All right. So tell us, tell us you each one of your little journeys to get into the same class.
Dr Travis: Sarah will you go first ?
Dr Sarah: Um, I was under chiropractic care as a teenager. I started going when I was probably 15 or 16 and my chiropractor knew exactly how to talk to me, which is, uh, you should never tell me I should do something. You should just suggest it subtly. And then I need to make it my own idea.
Dr Don Macdonald: That sounds like how my grandpa was. He always had to make sure you had to do a sneaky way because if you found out what you told them, you wouldn't do it.
Dr. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Um, and so we, uh, her and I did the same undergraduate program and I wasn't sure what I was going to do after, after I graduated from university.
And she just said to me one day, one of our visits. It's like, Hey, I didn't decide that I was going to go to chiropractic school until I walked across the stage at convocation. And uh, I was like, Hmm, okay. [00:04:00] So I like mulled it over on that and eventually it was like, Hey, maybe I should go to chiropractic college.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's cool.
Dr. Sarah: And, uh, yeah, then, um, I had it in my mind because I didn't have the, like, pre reqs to go to any American schools. And so I was like, if I don't get in to CMCC, I'm not going to be a chiropractor. And so I took all the, did all the interviews. I had some friends who were already in there, so I was able to, like, get a lot of the kind of You know, dirt on what I should know and things that, to prepare myself for the interview questions and whatnot. And, and lo and behold, I ended up, uh, in the class of 2008
Dr Don Macdonald: 2008. So that's the, that's when you started. You started, yeah. Yeah. 2008.
Dr Sarah: Oh no, we started in 2004.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah, 2004. Oh, that was your graduation. So 2008. That's cool. So you get in there and, uh, and how did you like school at the very beginning? Like how, how was it for you?
Dr Sarah: It felt like a firehose of information like university [00:05:00] and college were very different experiences for me like university felt like a really challenging way to like receive information and it was just really different from what I was used to in high school and then chiropractic college it was never like I don't understand this.
It was like, there was just so much coming at you that you're like, okay, what's, what's the most important thing that I need to pull up to from this? Uh, so yeah, that was the first year was decent in that it was just like a lot of information, but just kind of learning how to receive it. And then the second year they changed up our curriculum and it was a living school nightmare, unfortunately.
Dr Don Macdonald: Oh, wow.
Dr Sarah: And then third year things got better, and then fourth year is clinical, so it was awesome.
Dr Travis: Oh, that's good. Then you got, then you're rolling. So Dr. Travis, how did you get into chiropractic? What was your story? You get to the same class.
Uh, like more like a leap of faith. It was kind of weird. I, uh, it was in high school and this, this girl that we were sort of friends [00:06:00] with was like, I'm thinking of being a chiropractor and I kind of never been to one.
And I was like, you know. That sounds okay. And I kind of just looked into it a little bit, did a little bit of research, read a book, uh, I think it was some Stevenson book or something like that on like 33 principles at the time.
Dr Don Macdonald: Well, that's a good first book to read.
Dr Travis: Well, yeah, it's a little bit deeper.
You're like, holy crap, this is kind of dry. Laws of the universe. Like a university student. I was doing like a biology degree and then everybody was like, when you do your master's and your PhD, and I was like, not me, I'm not, I can't, I can't be an academic like that. So like, I kind of knew I was going to apply no matter what, and it was just a matter of like, you know, do I wait, do I whatever, and my buddy's like, apply now, get it done, I applied to CMCC, I kind of got on the wait list.
So I was a little bit disheartened, and then I, uh, did all my prereqs and I got into Western States. Uh, and I was about four steps away from going to Portland and then I freaked out and I was like, it's too expensive. I'm never going to pay for second year. [00:07:00] Like I got approved for all the loans for first year.
And then I just freaked out and I stopped and there was a week where I was like, maybe I'm going to be a police officer or a banker. And then I got the call and it was like last minute and I was like, move to Toronto. And I, I. Pack everything up in like six days and that's so funny. Cause I, I thought somewhere in my head about Western States and you guys, that's probably why the story was, is that it was almost Western States.
Me and my best buddy got into Western States. He became a dentist. And then he kind of, I forgot all about this and he's like, you know, I got into Western States. So I almost became a chiropractor. That would have been a way different experience. But anyways, I moved to Toronto and he went off to dental school and uh, yeah, school wise, it was just, I wouldn't say like serious.
It wasn't like difficult. Conceptually, it was more like just, yeah, volume. Volume. Can you handle this volume? At CMCC, they changed things. They were trying to follow like Harvard Medical School into like integrated learning and it wasn't integrated at all. It was just a schmozzle, like, doing everything all at once and like [00:08:00] having 26 answer booklets.
So nothing could ever compare to how difficult that was in my life, so. You get it, you just, just get it done, right? Like, yeah, I think that's always challenging too, if you're in, uh, you know, in a program or something and then they change it partway through, right? And they're like, Hey, this is unproven territory. We're just going to try it out on you guys. Yeah.
Dr Don Macdonald: Well, you guys turned out pretty good. So it wasn't that bad.
Dr Sarah: Hey, we were really fortunate in that, like our class was very outspoken. So we were not afraid to voice our needs. And so they would change things as. As we demanded them to be so that's good. It was good in that.
I think like if they're going to experiment on any class ours was the best.
Dr Travis: And it was very interesting too, because I think our class is sort of like a 50 50 blend of like people who are sort of open to the idea of like chiropractic [00:09:00] principle. Yeah. And 50 50 were like physiopractor kind of characters.
Yeah, and it was very interesting because like, I, I don't really recall talking to Sarah about this, but I was kind of involved with a lot of like the warrior chiropractors, like Ryan French and Mark Fulong and Freddie So and those guys, we have kind of all went to their seminars and, uh, Cafe of Life, Jamie, Jamie Richards, they all came and I like just, just went to these like events, right?
And never really thought anything of it until I kind of got to more fourth year and I was like, yeah, I'm definitely going to be leaning into the principled side of chiropractic as opposed to physiotherapy.
And that's a, that's a great point because, uh, and then Sarah, for you, like,
Dr Don Macdonald: Did You already have that kind of like vitalistic, uh, view of chiropractic before you started? Or, or did you kind of. How did, how did you come along to that?
Dr Sarah: I should, well, like that was kind of embedded in, in the, the relationship I had with my chiropractor as a teen. I never necessarily looked at it that way, but [00:10:00] we definitely were. Approaching chiropractic from more of a, uh, like a wellness strategy, not necessarily a treatment for anything.
Right. Um, so yeah, I think that that was always there. Um, I had less, I think of a vision coming out of chiropractic college for like how I wanted to practice then maybe Travis did. Um, but. Yeah, it just, it never felt like, yeah, like, like the physio, more physio approach was, was not a natural for me. So, right.
Dr Don Macdonald: And I think that's nice too. If you're a chiropractic patient and then you've already kind of learned, I was the same way as that kind of, I, I like, I think referred 20 people to my chiropractor when I was in college. And I think I was better at promoting chiropractic before I got to chiropractic school.
And then the, both the five to eight years after I was horrible at it. Because I was the chiropractor, so I wasn't very good at explaining anymore because I think my educated mind clouded my internal voice of what chiropractic was. [00:11:00]
Dr Sarah: Well, we've always found in practice, too, that we're like way better at hyping each other up than necessarily like saying you should come and see me for this.
Yeah, totally. Travis is awesome at that. You should see him for that. Yeah, that's why we need to get our own cheerleaders, right? Because we can't cheer for ourselves. So we need a cheerleader to promote us because we feel so bad about promoting ourselves.
Dr. Sarah: Right.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's funny. So tell me, how did you guys meet in the last year?
Dr. Travis and Dr Sarah: Oh, we knew each other all the way through. Yeah. We were just. Yeah, we had, uh. We were in pod together in fourth year.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah. That sounds romantic.
Dr. Travis and Dr Sarah: Yeah. It was. We sat with her every second day and looked at each other and did nothing. Talked and joked and then, you know, you'd go out for dinner and, you know, what's your group and then, oh, hey, there's a party and then you'd hang out there and, you know.
Yeah, we, uh. Then she begged me to date her and I said, sure.
Dr Don Macdonald: I love these stories. They, they just, they're like fishing stories. They get better as time goes on. [00:12:00] That's great. And so like when you guys graduated, were you, were you like, uh, were you going to just date for a while? Or were you gonna get married right away? Or did you decide, like, how did you make that decision from going, uh, going to Kelowna from, um, from Toronto?
Dr Travis: Sarah looked at me and she was like, I'm going to move to BC. And I was like, wait, me? And she's like, maybe, maybe that a girl, that a girl never fully commit. And I was like, Oh. I'll think about it. And so I, we, well, that was again, like, that was another pretty big leap of faith, I would say. And yeah, we just kind of like moved in together and she had like an associateship lined up in Kelowna.
And I was like, I guess I'm starting, I, there was nothing available. None of the guys in Kelowna had associateships. There was no jobs. So I just was like, I guess I'm starting a practice for nothing. And that was like. And then so you're, you were ready to start this associateship with this other chiropractor and the last minute she changed all the.
Change all the parameters. Hey, like [00:13:00] she changed the numbers, changed the days. I basically changed the contract and everything.
Dr Sarah: Well, yeah, I think we were, we were going on, on like the communication that we had had. And then at the very last second, I think it was like the day before I was supposed to start.
Yeah, like, like that email and was like, yeah, like this is going to be the context of how we're going to work together. And I was like, that's not what we talked about.
Dr Travis: So, so Sarah started to practice.
Dr Sarah: So I was like, I guess we're working together.
Dr Travis: Yeah, like literally like that day I was like, okay,
Dr Don Macdonald: So, You have a new partner instantly.
Dr Travis: Yeah, so that's the origin of how that started. But, um, yeah, like we, I think we moved to Kona in July. And then started up our practice plan, remember, that was huge. I was going to say, like, if you want to get really good at trying to grow a practice, go to the most densely populated chiropractic, uh, chiropractic area in Canada, almost, and then try to grow from scratch.[00:14:00]
Yeah. We definitely did the hard research. Obviously, we moved to Northern BC after that, we bought a practice. Yeah. Way easier. Yeah. Like when you purchase a practice, right? Like then going from scratch, right? Yeah. It just gives you way much more of a, like kind of a kickstart, right? Yeah.
Dr Don Macdonald: So tell me, tell me a little bit about, so we met you guys. So you moved up to BC and how long had you been up in BC before, um, before we met you?
Dr Travis: Well, we were friends with your best friend with Marty, Marty Thompson, we kind of like learned about you and I think Brandy had done some CA training for the BC. Yeah, for the BC called there were chiropractors yeah. So we kind of heard about you guys that way when we were in Cologne and we knew who you were.
And then of course started following you guys. They kind of before we left alone.
Dr Sarah: And then like Kevin Hallroad had talked to us about working with some of the vitality. And that kind of stuff with us too. And I think, yeah, it was more of a, [00:15:00] like, we were kind of in your orbit, but not necessarily, uh, attached yet.
Dr Travis: Well, we had a, like a very stark, when we were in Kelowna, we were very like X ray correction, you know, kind of like a blend of CBP. And then we, I moved into maximized living when Sarah was pregnant with the kids. So I was kind of practicing alone for four years, very like maximized livings, kind of corrective stuff.
And it just never. Uh, it was a great program ahead and really everything was about at that time, kind of being busy, you know, like being, you know, a thousand a week was always the thing when those kind of programs, at least in my perception. So, like I had always felt like you're never hitting these goals.
I had some buddies in Kelowna that were like rockstar chiropractors and that was like my benchmark, right? Yeah. I could never ever get anywhere close. Yeah. In this realm, like I was like. Adam, what am I doing? I'm doing friggin wall screenings, I'm doing home shows, [00:16:00] health fairs, crystals, and all the things in the world to like, get busy, uh, like, counseling, coaching, manifesting, everything.
I couldn't break anything for me. Ever. And it was like up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down in Kelowna. Like, and I had like very good, successful friends there. I just could not emulate their style. And I just like, and you were basically like you're pregnant for four years or well, not four years. Sarah was off work for four years and then kind of came back to the part time kind of like 2015.
Yeah, it was like a year and a half. And, uh, kind of got back in and then we kind of got into more like epic practice, coming up with a maximized living model and really liked that. And we, to the point where we're like, we just can't do this here anymore. My family was seven hours North, Sarah's family was in Ontario and Florida.
So we were like, let's make a change. [00:17:00] Yeah.
Dr Don Macdonald: And so what, what kind of, so that's what you did, you, you purchased the practice where you are now.
Dr Travis: Yeah.
Dr Don Macdonald: Well, and so did you guys want, like, is that kind of where you're targeting to go? Is that. Or were you just looking for ratchets for sale and that was closer to where you wanted to go?
Dr Sarah: We started looking for opportunities in the north to be closer to Travis's family. Um, and then, yeah, this was the one that kind of started to have some appealing things about it. It was listed originally as an associateship.
Dr Travis: Yeah. And then once we got to talking, he's like, well, I'd like to leave and sell. That was ideal. And then we kind of were like, oh, we kind of looked into the numbers. They were really good. Um, really good. And, uh, yeah, we just kind of went from there and we still had the practice in West Bank and that was also people learning curve because we got the wrong associate to take over the practice in West Bank and he tanked it within six months.[00:18:00]
Oh, really? And there was basically out of business kind of thing. Out of business. Yeah. Well, yeah, multiple practices and 12 hours away from one another. Not easy.
Dr Don Macdonald: And now, now tell me, tell me a bit of what, like any, just, just as far as practice style goes, so you guys went from the structural stuff with like CBP to like, to the Epic, and then we went into, you heard about the vitality shift, and then we talked a little bit about might be optimizing function and just changing up communication and finding your own style.
Tell me a bit about those first few years with the new practice.
Dr Travis: We spent, definitely spent the first year just kind of. Getting to know people and kind of copying the owners as best as possible. We had a bunch of staff and stuff. And we inherited two associates, a husband and wife, which new. Prior to graduating CMCC, the same school, so we're like, oh cool, we know these guys.
We're like, yeah, we just [00:19:00] basically spent the first year and a half, which is kind of like Trying to be just chameleons in the practice. Chameleons that didn't do like what everyone was used to, to not alienate anyone, so We turned up the new patient machine so that we really, in our first year, we only lost 2. 7 percent of the volume. That's great. Yeah, because we were anticipating at least 15 or 20, maybe 25, a quarter of the practice walking away, which it may have, but we replaced it with new patients and, uh, we would have actually beat the record of the prior owners, but the other doc went on map leafs. So I was like, we were on track let's do that.
Following year was the associates renewal and that ended in fire. Yeah. So that was a separation. That was the ending of that, which was a little bit of trauma. Yes. Thanks for helping us. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. We can just say, but again, like these are all these things, right? All these things that happen for us, they feel horrible at the moment, but then [00:20:00] sometimes the learning that we have afterwards is, is like.
Dr Don Macdonald: It's huge. So, so at this, at this, like, let's just go to the part where after the associates had left and you guys, you guys are up there. Kind of a little bit frustrated, maybe a little bit resentful, um, you know, thinking about what's going on, tell me a little bit about where your mindset was at as far as like, uh, because it is frustrating.
Cause I know a lot of chiropractors we've worked with, they set the, if they set these pretty big goals and they don't really have a good. they never actually hit their goals. It just chips away at your self esteem. So like, kind of, how are you guys feeling at that point?
Dr Travis: I, well, we, like, I think we had done really well that first year.
So we were kind of on path and then when it came down to contract negotiations, they walked and basically took almost half the practice with them. So we were already mortgaged out heavily, like big, big loan payments for the purchase. Yeah. And so we started kind of like freaking out and we had to like amortize the bone a little longer.
And then we [00:21:00] basically rebuilt up again, like we went up another whatever we got to like, we built the practice up another, I would say 25 percent after the year that they left. And then COVID hit and it went back down again. And I was like, we were like, Oh my God. And then we, we started coaching you guys a year after.
So we were, I think I was like, Oh man, I missed being able to use x ray as like a education tool. And we had scans. And we're trying to transition to like functional because that's really all we had just the practice. We didn't have x rays. So it was a I think it was a big curve for me And that's when you guys kind of stepped into the vitality test for us and that was like it was like it was like now We have something that we can use
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah, just to measure progress objectively and just for those that are listening in British Columbia, they changed the rules.
So it made it extremely hard for taking x rays. And so if someone in the past had, uh, basically primarily [00:22:00] used x rays as an objective tool or a patient education tool, and then suddenly it became very taboo to take x rays, it would be very challenging for your practice style, right? Because that was, that was kind of your mojo for getting people on track, right?
Dr Travis: Yeah.
Dr Sarah: And along with that, like a lot of the other programs that we had worked with were U. S. based, so their communication as far as like social media or marketing or even, um, the things that you were allowed to say at, let's say, a screening event, um, were severely restricted as well. Oh, yeah, the marketing.
We, um, We had to shrink our communication around what chiropractic was about, unfortunately, as far as external marketing or conversations would go so that the x ray and then that on top of that kind of had to make us look for strategies that were. usable for us in British Columbia to talk about how, [00:23:00] how chiropractic is still applicable in, in ways that are, are within, within the board's guidelines.
Dr Don Macdonald: Acceptable. Well, and I, I find, I think it's quite interesting because like often when we're in the most restricted areas, it actually forces you to become the most creative because, and it also, if we are, are living in that salutogenic lens where we actually want to actually build wealth rather than treat conditions or disease.
Um, it does force us to be able to be a lot better at linking that stuff because we could talk about improved function, improved spine. And then there's a lot of benefits that happen to surround that, but it is easier if you could just label it in the pathogenic model. Like, do you have like all these band words, like colic or blah, blah, blah, that you're not actually allowed to say in, in our, in our areas.
So I do find it is a little bit more challenging because you have to be more creative on how to. Get your word out there for sure. Yeah. Big time.
Dr Sarah: And as terrible of a time as the COVID kind of practice period was, it was actually really excellent for us as [00:24:00] far as like tailoring our schedules. Like we went down to a day and a half a week, um, emergency patients.
And then everybody's winking. Yeah. When we were looking at going back to more full time, we looked at, Ourselves and our what we wanted to do as far as going back to work and made our schedule. Tighter and, um, more productive in the time that we were in the office. So it ended up being very good for us as far as like rebuilding goes.
Dr Travis: Yeah. Open another half day, open another hour here for four days or five days.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's that's so good. Cause that's people do the opposite right? They go, I, I'm going to put open up all these hours and then hopefully fill them. It's like, yeah, that's, and that's tolerable for your energy too, because if you're sitting around the office and you're like, that's good though, because you're high energy every shift.
And then if you get full, you add one so that it's kind of like, you're having almost a little bit more energy at the day, [00:25:00] rather than, um, I, my stories, like when I first opened Braxton again, I opened, we opened like. And so one day I had one, one patient in the morning and one in the afternoon, and I was playing solitaire on the computer all day.
And then on the, when I drove home, I scratched the whole side of my truck backing up because I think I was like half brain dead. Cause you're just basically sitting around all day, like, and then, and then, you know, a practice member would come in and you'd almost be upset. Cause you're like, man, I almost won this game.
Like they're totally interrupting me with my computer games. You know, it was like, so, so I totally get, that's the best way to do it. Like fill it up first and then expand it from there. Yeah, that was a really, that was a really nice.
Dr Travis: And that's kind of when we started hanging out with you guys and did a little more.
We did the vitality shift right, right around then, right when we started opening back up. And, uh, I guess you were maybe, yeah, we started with you in kind of late 2022. That was, that was probably a very transitional time for me. Physically, well emotionally, with chiropractic, it was pretty cool. [00:26:00]
Dr Don Macdonald: And tell me a little bit about that, because you guys went through a big, and it was probably over what, about a two, was it a two year period that you guys grew really, like, cause it's funny cause we worked with you, we always say if we do our job right over 90 days, you should actually be growing afterwards, not, yeah, some coaching programs you just go up during the coaching program and because it's not really authentically you, you kind of, kind of, you kind of come back.
What was that timeframe that you really had that growth?
Dr Travis: Yeah, we, we hit a certain number one year after, like, I would call 2021, we kind of hit this, this number. And then when we started coaching with you, we had a 50 percent growth after that number. So we had 50 percent increase. Yeah. And I was like, Oh my God.
Okay. So I think the, the moment was like, you're like, man, you already know what a care plan you used to do. These x rays used to do like 70 visit care plans. And I was, I was like in between like three times a week. And do I just do this? Maybe I should just recommend it [00:27:00] three weeks and just be this wellness recommender.
And I was just totally in left field, even though I knew what I knew, I knew what they needed. Yeah. You were like, just recommend an extra visit for that guy if he needs it. And then all of a sudden our practice bumped up like 20 visits that week. And I was like, oh, okay, just recommend care. Like I just, I just lost that.
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that probably goes with your confidence too, right? I think that goes with your confidence. Yeah, so. I was, I mean, it was very interesting and I was like, Oh, well, yeah, well, obviously this person who's coming every, cause we had taken this practice over and there was people who came, you know, twice a year, weeks, every week, uh, whenever it hurts, you know, whatever.
Right. So these people would all show back up, like reactivations and I just let them do it. And then you were like, do they need another visit this weekend? They need like six, you know? So yeah. Come see me on Friday. Okay. Okay, maybe we should do reactivation is or [00:28:00] like a reval and see if you like maybe you should come every two weeks instead of whenever you want.
Yeah. Okay. And then it just started moving like that. And I was like, Oh yeah, okay.
Dr Sarah: We also reached a place in practice where we take things a lot less personally because things opened up for us. Like a huge part of our focus with you guys was like just getting our financial house in order. So when we were coming at care from not.
Like needing every dollar from that care plan and
Dr Don Macdonald: like desperation, right? Desperation
Dr Sarah: yeah, yeah, exactly. So when somebody is like a, not really responsive to what you're telling them, I were completely okay being like, thank you next. Like, yeah, I see you. Yeah. Like I, I, I. It's just, we're in a place where we're like, yeah, if you, if you're not into this, I, I'm happy to talk to somebody who is like.
Dr Don Macdonald: I, uh, it was very like that, the [00:29:00] financial conversation of, I've told you guys this at a seminar. Yeah, that was something that we were like an ostrich with our head in the sand for sure like we knew it wasn't great And then when Brandi kind of like dug it a little deeper for us I honestly like I I tell people I was like honestly, it was so painful to me And like embarrassing that I like manifested getting covid just so I didn't have to talk to her
Dr Travis: Oh god I was just like oh god, I want to throw up and she's just like poking poking and I was like and it is exactly What we needed because in those two years are Like we went down from like just with our head above water financially, like maybe a little bit of this, a little bit of that super in debt vehicles, the practice credit card debt, all this stuff to like, all of it's pretty much gone.
And we just have a homework. Nice. Like you, we've taken our debt from here where we're down that far in debt to like. Now we're cash positive and like, and savings, savings. [00:30:00] Yeah, like aggressively saving for retirement. So.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's so, that's so cool. And, and, and do you think what, what was kind of the biggest shift in your mindset? Was it actually becoming like brutally, like Brandy always says the brutal honesty, like let's, let's get that. And then often people say, yeah. And I think Sarah, like, I think she said to you, like, doesn't that bother you? Or like, I think I'm nervous for you. And you're like. Well, it does bother me a bit, but it's like, when you kind of get that awareness of how bad it is, like, you almost need that right.
It almost to kind of wake you up. That's, I think the only thing that really, that pain for me,
Dr Sarah: I think that like, I, I'm somebody who just needs like a plan, a strategy. So, and then we, you guys were able to be like, here's a simple way to just get that rolling. And we owed so many people money that it just felt like we were like, okay, so.
Yeah. We're just gonna, you know, take care of everyone. Whereas, instead of, we just, we started with one. [00:31:00] And then we rolled it into the next, and then into the next. And I, we paid off, like, over a hundred thousand dollars of debt in that first year.
Dr Don Macdonald: That is so good. That was crazy.
Dr Travis: And we owed my mother something cause she kind of like helped us bankroll the practice in West bank and we still hadn't finished paying her off.
And then I was like, well, if anyone's going to get a lump sum of money that I have sitting around, it's going to be my mother, not the bank. Yeah. So she got it and that was it. And it was honestly like when you guys are talking about that day where everything else barf, uh, uh, and it worked and I was like the snowball, the snowball debt payment.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah, well, that's awesome.
Dr Sarah: We did, uh, like a change of our like marketing strategy to after we worked with you and, um, we worked with a company that just kind of. Put us out there as far as like Facebook marketing and nobody doing that. [00:32:00] So it was like a astronomical change as far as like getting people into the office.
Um, but it also encouraged us to create a system with, um, with the vitality tests actually for our new patient visits. So we actually take the vitality tests that we find the most change in and also the most. Um, like, cause some of them are more like visibly changeable than others, um, so we, we turned those into like a scoring system.
And so people kind of get a little bit of a grade, a grade on their first visit. And then we integrated those into like how we do progress exams so that like people are seeing how that's changing over time as well. And that's been really helpful for us for. Like having some cool stuff for people to look at when they first come in, but also for them to see how they're, they're progressing through care.
Dr Travis: Well, it was kind of like the idea [00:33:00] of, I had signed up for like Myles Bodson's cash practice a hundred years ago. I remember that. Yeah. And then he had like, had the whole scoring system with a bunch of the tests. Uh, some of them are a little bit, uh, whatever, and never really got into using that very well.
And then can, um, insight had their like three score or score. So what I basically was like, okay, well we get the core score from the thermal and the HRV and then, well, Don showed us the middle Myers test and the one leg Dallas testing heel toe walk. And I was like, okay, well these are the perfect scores.
You get a perfect score. You get five out of five. And then somewhere in the grades, we took five scores and we averaged them at a 25 and then we give them a grade and so it's something that they can shoot for. And then we have, we have like a deal is if you can score like 85 percent you are very close to wellness and this isn't our ideals.
Like if you can be there, or if you can be at 85 percent on these five tests, effectively [00:34:00] you should be under wellness care because you know, nobody's ever going to be a hundred, right? You're 80 to a hundred percent, you're going to be functioning well. Everything's about nerve function. That's great.
That's cool. And then if you get the x rays from the lab or the x ray department, you can actually say, well, now look. Yeah.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah. It's just a bonus thing. I would say, yeah, I would say we're kind of like a lawyer and all those little pieces of objective findings are like pieces of evidence, right, that we could just kind of.
Kind of tell the story. That's great. Now tell, tell us a little bit about the, um, because, uh, we, we also got in the over COVID got a lot more into the polyvagal theory. And so what are some of the kind of principles of the polyvagal theory? Did you implement through that? Cause it's funny because it's basically the vitality shift was the precursor to the polyvagal and it's all very linear linked.
Just the language might be slightly different, but what are, what are some of the key components you guys learned from the polyvagal theory?
Dr Sarah: I think a lot of it was. It's more about, like, recognizing some [00:35:00] of the patient interactions that we were having, um, and then Um, even, yeah, even with, uh, like looking at how our staff was performing as well, um, we have one staff member who, um, like needs a lot more breaks than everybody else.
And then we also have, you know, like, uh, we've talked about it in some seminars before about biological rudeness. And that was a huge one going through COVID and afterwards. Yep. So like learning that, that that's somebody's like their. Their state at that moment. And it has nothing to do with how, what, how, how you're performing or, um, like how, how warm or welcoming you are or how hard you've worked to build the same environment for anyone
Right. Um, but uh, yeah, I think, I think a lot of it, and, and it's hard to not like dig into it with people. So you're like, oh, I see this is going on , how, [00:36:00] how, uh, how can we have a conversation about it? But it's not always, it's not always. Uh, something you need to have a conversation about. Totally. He just needs to be observed.
Dr Travis: Yeah. I've used it a little bit more, like, when I'm communicating with, like, heart rate variability. Whereas, like, you know, it's easy to kind of say, Hey, you know, you see a terrible heart rate variability that's in the sympathetics. Tell me you're kind of like a grizzly bear that's growling like your RPMs are great.
And he's like, yeah. Or, you know, like, even to the point where you get like a man. Who never says anything. This is back on the intake forms. Yeah. And you get that heartbeat where you're dealing and you're like, what's going on? What do you mean? I was like, yeah, there's your nerve systems, you know, in a stress response right now.
Oh, nothing. I was like, okay. And then you just kind of go on. He's like, well, maybe I'm getting divorced. And for me, it's like, Hey, listen, I'm not taking away your stress. Yeah. But I'm going to [00:37:00] help your body. Not breakdowns fast, like getting adjusted. So it's, it's a little bit more realistic conversations for me.
It's like saying like, I'm not expecting miracles here. Yeah. You know, like we're gonna, you know, you need, you need this, this, you know, it's going to try to help regulate you from the inside out. So it can, it moves the conversation away from rib pain.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah. And I think this is, and it's very rel, uh, like relatable.
Like when you talk about safety or, or, or ease in that comfort zone, it's, it's, it's very like understandable language because sometimes I think in chiropractic, if we get a little bit into our lingo, uh, sometimes like people don't understand it as much, but I think sometimes using those polyvagal words.
To be able to come across the chiropractic principles. Sometimes I find that people open, like you said, open up and then all of a sudden, then now you start to see patterns and then, and then I love doing this too. Or you say, and then someone who is experiencing what [00:38:00] you are experiencing might also experience this and this and this and this.
And they're like, and they're like, Holy cow. Like, are you like a mind reader? Like that's insane.
Dr Travis: Yeah. Or else, you know, the other, I like the other one too, and get like the mom, like three kids and all the teenager kids. Right. And they're like, HRB is like low autonomic tone. And it's like, your gas tank's empty.
You need to build that back up or you're in trouble. Like, it's not like left or right necessarily, like yeah, optimal side to side, but the adjustments are going to help you do this. And then it's like, you also need some new time, maybe, you know, other things that are going to fill your bucket. And she's like, so it's, you know, you can speak to them better than just, you know, the old school.
I always share like old school lecture is like, wow, your curve is straight. So you need 70 visits. And they're like, what the hell are you talking about? And then we'll fix it. Right. And then we'll fix it. It's more, it's a, it's like a more authentic conversation patients. Right. And so even if they're [00:39:00] like, you really, and I get the way I can make care plans now is like, you know, we can get more, we get better results with less visits.
I guess maybe that's just the thing is you get better as a chiropractor. But you can see like you, based on what these tests are showing me, you're in rough shape and you can be really truthful. I mean, if they're actually looks like garbage or not, like that tells me they're functioning better, right?
Like I get that you don't want to be here very often, but you need to. And they're like, Oh, okay. So I would, the best recommendation I'd say, let's say you need twice a week for three months. And they're like, Ooh, like they're actually seemingly open to like. I don't like to call it negotiating, but you kind of have to, right?
You're like, yeah, as long as you understand that you're in rough shape, I'm happy to see you every two weeks because you can't afford care or you can't calm that off. Can you live out of town or you work just as long as you understand that that's not ideal. Yeah. That's not the recommendation. Still make some headway, but it's not going to be fast if you're okay with that.
And so that's, and [00:40:00] that's something again, I didn't possess when I was in con, I just couldn't. You need, you need 80 visits, your neck says so. That's not happening, docs.
Dr Don Macdonald: Now, curious, you guys have come to a couple of adjusting seminars too, because the nice thing I love about the polyvagal theory, basically, it's just like chiropractic principles.
It can thread through everything in our life, like whether it's your communications, your relationships, all that kind of stuff. Um, have you, um, what kind of things have you done, maybe, that has changed up your actual adjusting, just looking, adjusting through a polyvagal lens?
Dr. Sarah: Well, our Our approach has always been very spinal, like we do adjust extremities like here and there, but I would say that in the, in the seminars that we've taken, which I think we've taken them all except level two, which we're doing with you in Denver, uh, we.
Like already possessed the spinal adjusting [00:41:00] skills like there are obviously going to be a little tweaks that we have made That have up leveled our adjustments for sure But a lot of the extremity things were things that I never would have thought thought to look for before. Um, because yeah, we just came from such a like pure kind of spinal health.
And then especially like a lot of the, the tissue threat things that we have talked about, um, in seminar as well, like our CMCC that they had a heavy emphasis on MRT. So we got a lot of that in technique class, and so we, when we're, when we're addressing spinal things, like, as a value add, sometimes we'll, like, toss in some MRT passes, and then, uh, we, in our, in our conversation, we would With Brandy, she's [00:42:00] like, you're like sometimes assaulting somebody, basically, or their nervous system is perceiving it that way, because it can be, it can be quite painful and you're like stripping a muscle that you're trying to get to like calm down instead of like flaring it up.
And so, yeah, some of the soft tissue approaches, and even like the extremity adjusting like. The way you teach it is definitely not what we learned at school. It's the like, yank and like, pray, basically. And then you teach it in such a way that it's like a, it's like a, it's a gentle kind of traction and then a release and then more of a flick than anything else.
So, um, all of that, A, was way more effective, uh, and B, a lot less. Uh, traumatic for us being adjusted, but also for our patients. And so when we're seeing them now, they're like, Oh, nobody's ever done that for me before in all the, like 12 other chiropractors I've seen in my entire life. [00:43:00] Cause we have a lot of people who are out, come up from other places to work.
And they're like, I've been under chiropractic care forever. And I've, nobody's ever even looked at that for me before. And so. Yeah, like our brains just travel in different paths now than they ever did before when we were, before we worked with you, for sure.
Dr Travis: Uh, well, my take on that, too, I, the occiput adjustment, I loved from the, you know, upper spine part and the first rib adjustment were like, awesome.
And there was, like, you, yeah, that, back to that, like, tissue safety. Yeah. When you're going to adjust the occiput, I always found, like, people were so guarded. And it was like, it was prior to learning that move, it was like, man, I just like cranking on heads. It was like the most painful experience to give an adjustment and I couldn't even imagine being patient.
Yeah. And you had that like tissue load, like you loaded to the max, right? You were [00:44:00] like. This is, you're basically told me this is the maximum you're ever getting as a patient and you tell their nervous system and then they accept that that's going to be the worst case scenario. And then you can come at 50 percent and adjust.
That was cool. And then the way you also. Lay it out the extremity just in case because I was like, ah, I don't know, like me used to adjust a lot of extremities just because they were like, I have foot pain. You did that to me and I eyes, but how like the hip and the shoulder are very interesting. The protected hip and the protected shoulder, because you're like, okay, now feel the muscles.
And after you adjust the hip joint. And I was like, Oh, so we're going to like the joint because I was like, Oh, just mixing whatever. Right. I just want to adjust for all of you. And then you put it into a neurology conversation when you said in neurology is protecting because the joint stocks, so when you release the joints, now the muscles can finally start to restore normal tone.[00:45:00]
And I was like, Oh, okay. So that's so easy to explain to a patient. And I was like, that joint's so stuck. Let the muscles, I could MRT that forever or put my elbow in it and you can roll it. Yeah. Just, you know, it's the same thing over and over. Like you're just doing glute passes for these patients just to feel like you're doing something for them.
Uh, and now it's like, okay, this is good. You know? So the protected hip is like I, two or three people that are supposed to have hip replacements or like actually saying you phone Don and tell him, thank you for me.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's awesome. We get that opening up now we're getting close to the end there, but I just wanted to jump a little bit.
Cause Sarah, you actually wrote a book. Didn't you? On the polyvagal here. Tell everybody about your little, your book that you did.
Dr Sarah: Uh, well, it's, it has a small portion of polyvagal theory in it, but mostly it was I, my intention with it was those [00:46:00] people who do come in with their HRV that is like fully tanked because in our experience, we found that those people tend to be the slowest ones to heal and get better and that HRV is the thing, unless they're like really working on it, that it takes the longest To, to change around.
Totally. Yeah. So, um, instead of, you know, me telling them, you know, like you should be relaxing and meditating and finding stuff to do on your own. Um, I wrote the book as a sort of guide for, for, and my target audience is definitely more families because that's what I practice with. So, yeah, it's, it's like home, much.
Care basically for, for the patients who want to start to look at some of their own ability to change that HRV and, and their, their vagal state.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's awesome. So you just have [00:47:00] it. So it's going to be like kind of complimentary to chiropractic care.
Dr Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, there are a couple of mentions of, of chiropractic and how it's the, the most direct access to change what's going on with your vagus, but, um, It's definitely more for, uh, for that additional, additional home care stuff.
Dr Don Macdonald: That's cool. What's it called? It's got a long title. You'll get it. So, right, grab a pencil. Grab a pencil. Here, I'll, I'll, I'll go. Sarah feels embarrassed about promoting it. I do. Yeah. Well, that's just like how we all do. So, backwards. Oh, there you go. Yeah, no, that's good. I can see that. Vagus Nerve Self Care.
Nice. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And then you, can you get a copy of it like on Amazon or is it, where, where can you get
Dr Sarah: Yeah, it's available on Amazon and, uh, there's digital copies and also the paper copies. I [00:48:00] just ordered a bulk order for the office because we want to integrate it into patient care, but.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah. That's cool. Well, I'll, I'll see if you can send me a link to it or whatever, and I can put it in the show notes and that would be awesome. Absolutely. Cool. All right. Thanks guys for showing up. Um, last words of inspiration. What do you want to leave everybody with from listening to this podcast?
Anything that wants to, maybe if they were felt like kind of stuck or financially destroyed or frustrated or anything, what kind of words would you like to leave them with?
Dr Travis: Uh, well, you know, leaning into the pain and just being like knowing why it's there, I guess is very, I don't mean back pain. I just hope Brandi I always give it like a little knife in my gut and I was like, man, and I was, you needed it. You almost needed to be embarrassed for yourself to then find the solution. And I'm, this is something I take the hard path first because you do the hard work now and it gets easier. That's [00:49:00] what wise words of wisdom, Sarah, what do you want to leave everybody with?
Dr Sarah: Um, like keep, keep trying stuff like it. You're what you're doing isn't working. You've got to kind of think about ways that you can grow with a different attack a different, you know, train of spot or a different activity. Cause we were stuck for a really long time and it just seemed like we couldn't move beyond a certain volume that we were stuck at or a certain income.
It didn't matter how big our team was or how many chiropractors we had working with us. Um, we just couldn't do it. And then the. When we started to look at it from different angles and change up the way that we did our, um, yeah, our procedures, it really kind of streamlined things for us, and we're able to do a lot more, [00:50:00] but with a lot less energetic output from us.
So, yeah, just, just keep trying stuff. Just. Keep seeing what you can do, because my biggest challenge was that none of the things that we were doing before ever felt authentic to me. So always, um, a script that I was like, I really don't like this. So, uh, moving into like what felt like honest and like something that I would actually say, not just something someone else had written for me, uh, was.
The, the big, the big shift, I think, and just, yeah, keep, keep finding what feels right to you.
Dr Don Macdonald: Yeah, I think, I think too, that's a big, that's really important part is that there is a way to be an authentic chiropractor. So you can be, you can do procedures, communicate, talk about chiropractic, adjust in, in an authentic way to you.
I think just if you don't know what that authentic way is, you have to just see a whole bunch of different ways people do [00:51:00] it, but just realize that there's going to be a proper, well, not proper, but an ideal way. That becomes more authentic for you. And then that's more sustainable success. And that's, that's what we always want to do with that 90 days is try to kind of figure out what's the path that you could be on that actually is authentic.
So you don't need to have motivation from the outside. You can keep it going because it's actually who you are.
Dr Travis: Well, I don't know. Like we said, the 90 days is such a good thing for us. Uh, to do originally, because you were like, yeah, just say it. And you know, it, you say it and you're like, oh, okay. So you find your authentic voice more.
And I guess coming onto that again and saying, no matter what, no matter how much growth you experienced, you're going to hit that ceiling and we are there now. And, and hence why we would like to do another, another 90 day plan with you guys, because you're so good at seeing what we can't, and that's, I think when you find somebody.
That can coach, even, even though like maybe you have a, you have a vision to get to [00:52:00] here, but that coach and like, you know, it's like having a consultant come in and say, okay, well, that's the gap that you're missing. That's what I'm hoping like we can achieve you guys again. It's like you get look into it a little bit more and say, okay, well, these look good.
This looks good. And then, hey, there's that one thing that you're missing that you might add in. Go, but it has to be the linchpin.
Dr Don Macdonald: We're always looking for linchpins, baby. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks guys so much for being on the call. We really appreciate it. That's great. We went a little longer today, but we had doubled the trouble.
So we had double the time. So we, we had a little extra time on it. So I really appreciate it. Hope you guys are all doing an awesome day out there. Got a lot of good information from this episode and we will see you again in a couple of weeks. And that brings us to the end of another episode of the informed chiropractor.
I want to thank you for joining us today and being an important part of this community. Dedicated to advancing chiropractic care through the insights of neurology and the polyvagal theory. As we close today's episode, [00:53:00] remember that each one of us has the power to make a significant impact on the health and wellbeing of our practice members.
It's through our continuous learning, application, and sharing of knowledge that we can truly elevate the practice of chiropractic and enhance the lives of those that we serve. Before we part ways, I encourage you to connect with us online. Visit our website and follow us on social media to stay updated.
Our website is www. theinformedchiropractor. com. And if you found value in today's episode, please share it with a colleague or a friend who might benefit as well. Your support helps us reach and inspire more chiropractors to make a greater impact on their communities. It's been a pleasure to be with you today on the informed chiropractor.
And until next time, Dr. Don out.
